Morrowind talk:People

Noinclude?

I've noticed that all the Morrowind People articles have noinclude tags around the categories and trails. Since I doubt it's likely that that any of these pages will ever be transcluded onto any other page, I'd like to suggest that this is needlessly complicated, and that these should be removed when they're discovered. (I've also altered the Morrowind People Trail to accept an optional race parameter, which will automatically generate the race category, so those can also be removed. I think these changes will simplify the People page creation process, allowing people less familiar with the intricacies of wiki-code to create them. See my recent changes to the Ald'ruhn Fighters Guild people for examples. Thoughts? Dissentions? --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 11:38, 19 February 2007 (EST)

Well, I must say I disagree. I don't really see the wisdom of working to eliminate functionality from the NPC pages by removing the noinclude tags. Now if we want to say that adding those is no longer necessary, that's fine with me, but removing them from existing changes just seems like doing work that hurts the wiki in the long run. --Ratwar 15:47, 19 February 2007 (EST)

Question: Can you name me one instance where you'd want to transclude an NPC page onto another page? Because this is really the only reason for the tags. Even if there are a few cases where you would need to do this, you can always just add the noinclude tags to those unusual cases. There's certainly no need for every single NPC page to have them. I just think they make things more complicated than they need to be, which is something of an entry barrier for new editors. As for removing them from existing pages, the only reason I suggest this is that new editors, when they want to create a new NPC page, might look at existing NPC pages to see how it's done, so it would be nice to encourage a consistant formatting. That said, it is a lot of work to go back and change things, so I probably won't be doing that unless there's another change that needs to be made on the same page. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 16:25, 19 February 2007 (EST)

More detailed page for NPCs

I'm itching to get the details of NPC-only classes out of the Classes page and onto its own page. Which I can do any time, but while I was on the subject, I decided to putter around in the Construction Set and determine the actual formulae used to generate stats for NPCs from their race, gender, class, and level. I made some progress—figured out Skills easy, but Attributes make less sense—and then realized I wasn't sure where to put the info.

So I notice we have this page here called People which has lists of NPCs but no prose whatsoever. Okay. I also notice we conspicuously don't have any page called "NPCs". Is this intentional? Bethesda did seem to keep that term very carefully absent in the manual and in the game proper. On the other hand, it appears constantly behind the scenes, here on the wiki, and throughout role-playing all the way back to first edition D&D.

Does anyone object to my creating a page called "Non-player Characters" (with "NPCs" redirecting) as place to explain some of the finer points about the workings of NPCs in this world? No need to change anything about the People page, except to add a one-liner link to the new page at the top. --TheNicestGuy 12:43, 6 January 2008 (EST)

If you can figure out the formulas, sure. One thing I think we DON'T need is to have all of the skills and attributes for every NPC listed on their individual NPC pages. Some are important, like the Mercantile skill for merchants, and the three highest skills for trainers (and those are already listed), but in most other cases, it's really way more information than we really need to have on the pages. At the very most, I could imagine saying which is the highest armor and weapon skill for some NPCs (mainly the ones you're expected to fight in the game), so you can predict what they'll attack you with. But then, that could just as easily be accomplished by stating what equipment they're using, rather than their actual skills. (Unlike Oblivion, it's not leveled most of the time in Morrowind, and even when it is, you can link to the appropriate leveled list.) As for attributes, again, they're just not important enough that I think they need to be included on NPC pages. Only in unusual special cases (e.g. Gaenor) where one attribute is unusually high to the point where it significantly affects gameplay, but off-hand, I can't think of any others that are that unusual. At one point somebody did propose a table that would display all of a character's attributes, but I just thought it was overkill. What is somebody looking at that page going to DO with that information? Maybe you can predict if an enemy will come at you with a battleaxe vs. spells vs. a bow, but generally that sort of thing can be guessed just by looking at their class and other information on the page. Knowing the exact numbers doesn't seem to be necessary to anyone except perhaps modders, who could just as easily look it up themselves in the CS. Putting it on the site just seems like information-overload. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 17:36, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Over in Oblivion-space we have NPCs which seems to do at least some of what you've suggested. There's a plan to create Shivering:NPCs for information on the generic NPCs in the Shivering Isles too so I'd call your new page Morrowind:NPCs. The two games are different but similar enough that the new page can learn from the old one. —Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 02:10, 7 January 2008 (EST)

Lurlock, I absolutely agree about what we don't need. Rest assured, my intent at the moment is only to write an article explaining NPCs in general, revealing a little of their nitty-gritty (but not too much, as it quickly gets into territory that only modders care about) and possibly pointing out some wiki conventions (like relevant vs. generic). I don't even want it to be terribly long. Oblivion:NPCs is perfect for me to use as a loose model, and the math details there look like they'll help me immensely in figuring out their Morrowind counterparts. --TheNicestGuy 10:43, 7 January 2008 (EST)

I like what you're proposing :) I'd just like to second the suggestion that the Morrowind page be named NPCs. I think to the extent that it's reasonably possible, having similar page names and organizational structure for the different namespaces will make it easier for both editors and readers. --Nephele^Talk 18:32, 7 January 2008 (EST)

"Little advice" from NPCs

I noticed that many (if not most) NPCs when asked about the topic "little advice" will say something like "If you want to know about CLASS X/ If you want my opinion on the ideal CLASS X then go to NPC Y". For example, Biring for Barbarian, Ingokning for Assassin, Fenas MAdach for Thief or Miles Gloriosus for Warrior. What's up with that? I used to think (back when I started playing Morrowind) that those NPCs were the Master trainers but obviously they aren't. So, does anyone know what's special about these "ideal" NPCs? -Meisterdieb 17:24, 26 December 2008 (EST)

I also thought they were master trainers, but only 6 out of the 33 I checked are trainers. And they are medium skill, not masters. Many of these NPCs are relevant to quests, have other services or dialogue, but there are quite a few non-relevant characters as well.

Here's my list of the little advice mentions: An-Deesei, Bolrin, Milie Hastien, Elone, Fenas Madach, Ingokning, Ian, Athal Nerano, Llevana Salaren, Dumbuk gro-Bolak, Ales Julalanie, Albecius Colollius, Mervs Uvayn, Flaenia Amiulusus, Angoril, Snorri, Miles Gloriosus, Garothmuk gro-Muzgub, Maela Kaushad, Vala Catraso, Gudling the Rascal, Briring, Nalion, Tendris Vedran, Galar Rothan, Anarenen, Strillian Macro, Melvure Rindu, Eraamion, Artisa Arelas, Ygfa, Estirdalin, Smokey Morth

Lukish_ Tlk Cnt 07:07, 28 December 2008 (EST)

There doesn't seem to be anything special about these NPCs. Even the dialogue of the two I checked doesn't have anything unique. I suppose we ought to list the information on their pages though: "NPCs will direct you to X for advice about Y, although s/he has nothing particular to say on the subject" or something like that. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 04:18, 31 December 2008 (EST)

I only checked in the Morrowind.esm, none of the expansions, and the referral to Ales Julalanie (the bard) is actually bugged, saying Dumbuk gro-Bolak (the knight) IIRC. Lukish_ Tlk Cnt 04:38, 31 December 2008 (EST)

Odd, since this would be one of two "bugs" involving Dumbuk gro-Bolak, the other being that he's located in two different locations at once. Granted, neither of these is exactly game-shattering, but it does suggest a little bit of developer sloppiness regarding this fairly minor character. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 12:10, 3 January 2009 (EST)

I thought that the NPCs mentioned might have more than the usual dialogue options available when compared to other NPCs of the same class, and thus open up more dialogue options. For example, some scout-like NPCs will have a bunch of dialogue options about geographic places in Morrowind, but maybe the "master" scout would have all the scout-related dialogue available. So talking to the "master" could open up a lot more options... ? I've never bothered to verify this though. 71.194.76.252 05:48, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Factions?

Should there be added columns for factions in the Morrowind NPC pages like there is on the Oblivion NPC pages? -Goblin lair 11:52, 11 July 2009

There already is. –Elliot^(T-C) 09:58, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

... hm... seems like the one I looked at were just an ecception... well I have fixed that one now. -Goblin lair 12:14, 11 July 2009

"Other" Lists

The main page for Morrowind People has a list of people by location, but does not contain "other" lists of people, such as lists of Essential NPCs, Non-Relevant NPCs, or people added by plug-ins. These lists could further break-down searching for an NPC if we add the links to the main page. Any objections to adding an "other" section for other people lists? -- Jplatinum16 23:55, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Morrowind had 9,000+ Actors. "Essential" and "Non-Relevant" actors are listed on the NPC's page and the main expansion packs (Tribunal and Bloodmoon)have their own namespace where they are listed. All of these links are listed at the top of the page so I really don't think it's needed.--^Corevette₇₈₉ 00:02, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I just noticed the expansion note. Yes, I am aware of Morrowind's extensive NPCs, that was why I suggested that a few lists other than location be on the main page. Lists are made so readers don't have to go an individual NPC's page to see if they are essential or non-relevant (and non-releveant NPCs don't even have a page). The suggestion was meant to be something like:

Other Lists

• Essential NPCs
• Non-Relevant NPCs

Really only those two, just for easier navigation -- Jplatinum16 01:53, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. rpeh •T•C•E• 05:00, 22 April 2010 (UTC)